tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3957366923512814537.post6290915099468244820..comments2023-10-26T02:05:15.270-07:00Comments on Offcenter with Ehkzu: Clean hands and bad apples--Propaganda 101Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3957366923512814537.post-85472039572312154582010-03-26T13:23:21.147-07:002010-03-26T13:23:21.147-07:00Ehkzu, good call. The beginning of my previous co...Ehkzu, good call. The beginning of my previous comment was indeed a bit skew. There's a distinct lack of conversation on political fights being fought based on group identity loyalties (tribalism), so I enjoy seeing others' perspectives when it comes to this subject. On human nature, this time without snarkiness, I was simply trying to point out that human nature is there regardless of it's ill effects or origins. To justify its existence may seem like an excuse for ill behavior to some, and to ignore it is to deny true motives. So, I agree that the tendency to be tribal is too often ignored, however, my opinion remains that simply identifying its role in human nature might suffice.<br /><br />Otherwise, thanks for keeping up the blog - it's nice reading opinion commentary that doesn't assume infallibility in any particular political doctrine. Too many other discussions come across as simply preaching infallible political scripture.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644544726160365344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3957366923512814537.post-16047503379736630902010-03-25T15:57:07.014-07:002010-03-25T15:57:07.014-07:00Sean--not to be snarky about not being snarky, but...Sean--not to be snarky about not being snarky, but that's like someone saying "I don't want to hurt your feelings, but..." You know your feelings are about to be hurt.<br /><br />As for tribality being obvious...well, it is to me, but I haven't seen it mentioned by many others. Mainly they talk about racism or psychologize the issue--laying responsibility at the feet of an individual's personal psychology instead of looking at the structural situation.<br /><br />For example, we put the soldiers directly involved in the Abu Ghraib scandal in prison. Yet it seemed obvious to me that when you put untrained grunts in a very difficult situation without adequate supervision and with conflicting orders coming from civilian contractors, you'll get what we got, and punishing those at the tip of the spear just lets the ones holding the spear off the hook. I know the general in charge was run out of the Army, but she had just been dealing with the hand she was dealt by Rumsfeld et al.<br /><br />Likewise I don't see people showing a lot of awareness of how a political party can incite criminal conduct by its shock troops while acting shocked! shocked! when it inevitably happens--that none of this is coincidental, but rather is part of an intelligently crafted policy.<br /><br />I do agree that Democrats aren't angels, as my spouse readily points out. The nearly routine suppression of right wing speakers on campuses nationwide by howling leftist mobs shows that fascism isn't a left- or right-wing thing any more than terrorism is. It springs from the amygdala buried in all our brains.<br /><br />However, I concur with factcheck.org and politifact.com and others in finding the Republicans generally sinking lower than the Democrats. A lot lower. That said, my spouse finds exactly the opposite (but without the constant recourse to nonpartisan fact checkers that I do).Ehkzuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17090000685352164879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3957366923512814537.post-39982095808358023642010-03-25T13:52:23.064-07:002010-03-25T13:52:23.064-07:00Not to be snarky, but trying to explain why/how hu...Not to be snarky, but trying to explain why/how humans are tribal reminds me of other mind-numbingly obvious headlines I've seen (News flash: People who exercise less are more likely to be fat). On the other hand, I'm always happy to see current events analyzed through the lens of human nature. Demagoguery is a potent and dangerous political weapon when wielded with bad intentions, especially when the target audience refuses to seek out information outside of talk-radio and Fox News. That being said, many who criticize the above mentioned media outlets as being virulent hubs of information often fail to see that their own media 'tribe' picks and chooses information and opinion that they feed on.<br /><br />Marcel, biting sarcasm is not an effective form of discussion. Moreover, it's even less effective when used to accuse someone of being influenced of demagoguery due to mental dysfunction. Arguments such as those are only outdone by demagoguery when it comes to being offensive.<br /><br />However, for all the ongoing agony in our government system, the obvious lack of an absolute correct method from which to compare political policies against should be quite obvious. For every educated Democrat out there toting logical arguments for fair insurance practices, there another equally educated (gasp) Republican out there agonizing over yet another poverty-enabling government handout. If anything, it's the lack of discussion on an important topic that is the great tragedy. For every pissed-off redneck out there armed with a brick (aimed for someone's window), there's a self-righteous 'progressive' know-it-all harping on about the idiot tea-baggers ruining our country. If there's anything to be gained from this political climate, I believe it's this: recognize partisan bickering for what it is.Seanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07644544726160365344noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3957366923512814537.post-47245130524989540682010-03-25T10:05:03.312-07:002010-03-25T10:05:03.312-07:00That's why I said "tends."
And as ...That's why I said "tends." <br /><br />And as I said, it's not mental dysfunction--it's the human race's deepseated tribalism.<br /><br />Our society is heavily psychologized, attributing many things to mental disorders which are either sociopathies rather than psychopathies, or which are things perfectly normal people do in certain circumstances.<br /><br />For example, Islamist suicide bombers are mostly psychologically normal. They've just been raised in a society that trains them from birth to see murdering civilians of the despised group as the highest calling one could aspire to.<br /><br />The Stanford jail experiments some decades ago showed that you could convert pretty much anybody into a sadistic jailer within 24 hours, given the right situation.<br /><br />We are way more influenced by our social environment than most of us can admit. But we only gain free will by becoming aware of our chains.<br /><br />So we're all influenced by demagoguery when it's from people we perceive as being in our tribe, and left unmoved by the demagogues of the other tribe. <br /><br />I have to consciously "lean against the wind" of demagoguery that suits me. Thus when President Obama talks I want to believe him, because I perceive him as being in my tribe, as both a Democrat and a pragmatic centrist one at that.<br /><br />Yet I've seen him say things that factcheck.org later showed to be exaggeration/spin. I've seen him use the false choice fallacy in discussing illegal immigration. And I have to fight my desire to believe everything he says when he says that.<br /><br />And if you believe your tribe is under an existential threat--as the Republican Party has done about this mild healthcare reform bill--that's when you get nice middle class educated people "listening" to demagoguery the most.Ehkzuhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17090000685352164879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3957366923512814537.post-2635990752914862002010-03-25T09:34:14.101-07:002010-03-25T09:34:14.101-07:00This commentor said "Kindly tell us oh honest...<i>This commentor said "Kindly tell us oh honest Bob, just who are those in the Republican Party are who are tolerating, shielding and encouraging foul, mean-spirited and bigoted behavior."</i><br /><br />One must be truly clueless -- perhaps a Fox News consumer -- to ask this after all the video of Republican Congressmen urging teabaggers to disrupt proceedings and applauding them for doing so.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3957366923512814537.post-74312337024359718252010-03-25T09:29:31.418-07:002010-03-25T09:29:31.418-07:00"demagoguery tends to offend educated people&..."demagoguery tends to offend educated people"<br /><br />Then why does it work so well on people like your wife and that guy who wrote that comment?<br /><br />It's odd that, being so close to her, you are blind to your wife's mental dysfunction. But there's a mental dysfunction operating among most "centrists", a blindness to imbalanced distributions within the political spectrum.Marcel Kincaidnoreply@blogger.com